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percivalAfter all this discussion about shipping, I thought I'd weigh in with the reason why I support a ship that many people find disgusting: Draco/Goblet, the Wrong Ship.
I ship Draco/Goblet because it is a relationship that can never be, and that should never be, a relationship that cannot be substantiated by canon except by grossly misreading and subtextualising one sentence in PS/SS. In other words, it's a parody of shipping. (Some would argue it's a parody of H/H shipping. Hey, let's not get SNARXy here.)
It's completely ridiculous - just as, in my view, are student/teacher ships. There is no way it could be a valid extrapoliation of what Rowling has written. Draco/Goblet doesn't portray damaging sexual behaviour, such as incest, child abuse or intercourse with animals as desirable. If at all, the ship satirises Draco's vanity and self-centredness.
Taken literally, Draco/Goblet is indeed an obnoxious ship. Taken laterally, it can be seen as a commentary of what the Fandom has gotten itself into by being obsessed with shipping. As I see it, the books do not hinge on whether Ron ultimately gets Hermione. They hinge on the relationship between the members of the Trio, which needs to be finely balanced. My guess is that of all the possible relationships, Ron/Hermione is the least destabilising. Both are sidekicks, both complement each other. Relationships outside the Trio would also destabilise it, given that the love bird in question would feel the need to focus on the loved one, not on Harry.
However, we won't see much of any blossoming relationships in the books, methinks, because Harry is, er, how shall I put this in order not to offend my male friends, a boy. Which means that romantically speaking, he's not very perceptive. As for his own love life, I count on Voldie to keep him busy until the Epilogue.
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calanthe_b on how R/H is crucial ...)
My biggest fear is that in Book V, the trio will be thrown seriously out of balance by the arrival of Ron on the Quidditch team. There's often been some sort of conflict within the trio: first year, the boys not accepting Hermione, third year, the Firebolt, fourth year, SPEW and the Yule Ball. For the first time, Ron will be Harry's direct rival - and maybe also his superior. Or Harry could be his superior, depending on who becomes Captain. Ron, with his Chess talents, is a natural. I can just see Ron losing himself in Quidditch, neglecting the small matter of his friend Harry and Harry's cuddly friend Voldeobum, eh, Voldemort. No offense,stereo_m. You ARE cuddly. Voldie isn't.
I ship Draco/Goblet because it is a relationship that can never be, and that should never be, a relationship that cannot be substantiated by canon except by grossly misreading and subtextualising one sentence in PS/SS. In other words, it's a parody of shipping. (Some would argue it's a parody of H/H shipping. Hey, let's not get SNARXy here.)
It's completely ridiculous - just as, in my view, are student/teacher ships. There is no way it could be a valid extrapoliation of what Rowling has written. Draco/Goblet doesn't portray damaging sexual behaviour, such as incest, child abuse or intercourse with animals as desirable. If at all, the ship satirises Draco's vanity and self-centredness.
Taken literally, Draco/Goblet is indeed an obnoxious ship. Taken laterally, it can be seen as a commentary of what the Fandom has gotten itself into by being obsessed with shipping. As I see it, the books do not hinge on whether Ron ultimately gets Hermione. They hinge on the relationship between the members of the Trio, which needs to be finely balanced. My guess is that of all the possible relationships, Ron/Hermione is the least destabilising. Both are sidekicks, both complement each other. Relationships outside the Trio would also destabilise it, given that the love bird in question would feel the need to focus on the loved one, not on Harry.
However, we won't see much of any blossoming relationships in the books, methinks, because Harry is, er, how shall I put this in order not to offend my male friends, a boy. Which means that romantically speaking, he's not very perceptive. As for his own love life, I count on Voldie to keep him busy until the Epilogue.
(
calanthe_b on how R/H is crucial ...)My biggest fear is that in Book V, the trio will be thrown seriously out of balance by the arrival of Ron on the Quidditch team. There's often been some sort of conflict within the trio: first year, the boys not accepting Hermione, third year, the Firebolt, fourth year, SPEW and the Yule Ball. For the first time, Ron will be Harry's direct rival - and maybe also his superior. Or Harry could be his superior, depending on who becomes Captain. Ron, with his Chess talents, is a natural. I can just see Ron losing himself in Quidditch, neglecting the small matter of his friend Harry and Harry's cuddly friend Voldeobum, eh, Voldemort. No offense,
stereo_m. You ARE cuddly. Voldie isn't. 
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query
Date: 2003-05-06 08:31 am (UTC)find anything that struck me as magical...seemed like could
be a school of computer geeks. no doubt wrongheaded on
this... should give it another try. so took moment to
decipher yours but seemed to be reference to something
else I find not very magical slash fan fiction... to me
Baudelaire is not decadent in a bad way but that is...
but havent read the stuff so maybe wrong headed again
but good god have they gotten around to Pooh/Piglet
and if so why? and if not is it but a matter of time?
+Seraphim
Re: query
Date: 2003-05-07 08:01 am (UTC)I don't think anyboy who doesn't like Harry Potter is wrongheaded. It's pure escapism
- the books read well, they are intricately plotted, and the hero is believable, not perfect.
The world itself is very carefully, even lovingly constructed.
It was enough to suck me in :)
As for homosexual pairings in fanfiction: most writers strongly believe that
homosexual relationships are as valid as heterosexual ones, and hence have no problems
with writing them. I don't see it in the Harry Potter universe myself, but I can accept
well-written (!) fan fiction that doesn't depart too much from the characterisation that
Rowling herself gives ...
How are your Iona plans coming along?
percival
iona after a bit on proust
Date: 2003-05-07 08:18 am (UTC)read and know only by as it were repute, is not
with the sexual polarities... I dont know if I
would say "as" "as" as above, seems to me
everything in the world is assymetrical and no
two things the same, but I have no problem with
that...good Lord I read Proust through when I
was in my teens and Gide's Counterfeiters was
perhaps the second serious book I read(for its
title I suppose about criminal detection) after
some Dostoevsky...
no my problem is with the imposition of
something to characters the authors did not
intend, as at were a kind of vampirism...drawing
artistic validity from another author who is
really the only real writer...most fan writers
in my experience(was one with Oz for a while)
cant write out of a paper bag...
and the imposition of finally a cultural crudeness
(not the sexual act) but the reducing of
characters essentially to it... not having
read slash fiction this might be unfair a little
in some special case where a real writer were
doing it but I expect it can be fairly on the
mark...
and what is the point? if not unconsciously maybe
a disfiguring of other peoples paintings with
a graffito?
Thinking aloud here...at too much length...
and if someone looks over our shoulder and is
a fan or writer please dont take it up with me...
only writing to Perceval in this time an
essentially personal note which now turns
purely personal to Iona...
nothing special new except Elizabeth Roberts
of Crooked Stane, would like to develop
Crooked Stane(where the deuce is it? must look
at map..kind of fun to say...like Lenny Bruce
said in court of some profanity he repeated
over and over...excuse anarachic imagination
here)into a retreat center...could stay there.
Iona I am waiting for reply if any from the
community perhaps if they took me under
their wing(if they have a wing) it could
be not too bad...
bigger dilemna study russian in august or not
unresolved... oi..as we say in new york.
oi.
but happy to think of scotland. will be in russia
in septemeber in every case.
as per separate note blessings and joy!
and moderate sugar
+Seraphim.
Re: iona after a bit on proust
Date: 2003-05-07 08:56 am (UTC)Definition Fallacy (http://www.livejournal.com/users/dr_c/2903.html#cutid1)
In general, the writers on the web site I frequent, The Sugar Quill (http://www.sugarquill.net)
are good writers. Fics are beta read thoroughly before being posted, and the writers are committed to their craft.
I can recommend fics by said
him unwittingly to become a great force of darkness. It's a very powerful message.
We Quillers also care about staying true to the books - not abusing Rowling's creations, but keeping them alive during the wait for Book V.
You will also find that many of the Quill writers are serious about writing and want to write original fiction eventually. And that they share your suspicion of semiliterate fanfiction writers.
As for Iona: I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!
percival
oops
Date: 2003-05-07 09:46 am (UTC)well Im sure I do things you might
disapprove of, I dont know what
exactly but between any two people
there must be some things...
and that is part of the thing of being
different people.
I still think there is a difference
between ersatz and real dreaming and
creation which this can blur and in
cases on lj where I have glanced at
slash fic (I was not able to read any
through beyond skimming)clearly did...to my taste only...
it was ersatz.
will look at the authors you reccomend
and of course I am sure if you have
written something I would not disapprove
it since one thing about taking up even
the slightest friendship is a certain
suspension of judgment which you surely
would grant me...
+Seraphim
Re: oops
Date: 2003-05-07 09:55 am (UTC)I really appreciate your kindness and gentleness, and I value your literary judgement.
But relax, I'm not a writer, I'm not published on the Quill, and I've never written slash -
the fan fiction I do write is mostly humorous, joking with Rowling's characters, or slightly
angsty. But nothing longer than 2000 words and nothing published on the Quill or anywhere else!
:)
percival
sounds like my oz fiction attempts
Date: 2003-05-07 10:55 am (UTC)wrote some not very good...and nonfiction
on field better. corresponded with a guy
named march laumer in sweden , failed
writing brother of keith american sci fi writer.
march wrote impossible stuff with obsessive
be but mostly homo sexual goings on and ornate
prose which he took very seriously and any
editor would, well, slash...
when I finally got down to some serious writing
beyond translation, it was more in what you
might call the spiritual area and that seems to
be what I can do.
of fantasy I think you would like or perhaps do,
as I do,
the work of alan garner, elidor, moon of gomrath,
owl service, weirdstone of bressingham...
+Seraphim.
Re: sounds like my oz fiction attempts
Date: 2003-05-08 02:32 am (UTC)into Harry Potter :)
it's good that you've found a type of writing you're good at. I always really enjoy your LJ entries!
percival
no subject
Date: 2003-05-06 07:04 pm (UTC)I think we'll see some romance for Harry before the Epilogue but yeah, it won't be center stage unless it's like a damsel-in-distress situation or Dark-Lord-Fighting-Duo.
I don't fear too much for Keeper!Ron. I agree that given his ability at chess, he'll be very good at his position. Although, you're right about the conflict and I could see the new found popularity going to Ron's head.
Not long now... :)
no subject
Date: 2003-05-06 07:40 pm (UTC)Ah...finally someone who's willing to come out of the shipping madness and actually state the obvious! Thank you... ~worships Percy~ Although unlike you, I think that R/H would be massively destabilising. But we all have our own interpretations of that...
Your thoughts on the possible problems if Ron becomes a member of the Quidditch team (if that's a spoiler, please don't tell me, I still don't want to know!) are interesting. He does seem to be developing a need to assert his independence from Harry, though he still has problems letting Harry and Hermione assert their independence from him and from the group. Quidditch is certainly a way he could try to do that...if it comes up, Ron being Ron, I expect he'll do it in the least tactful and most hurtful possible way, and it very well could cause major problems. No, not random Ron-bashing--he is the least mature and least socially able of the three, and it's bound to come out in his behaviour.
What do you think of Hermione's potential to cause Trio splits? Entirely independent of ~shudders~ shipping, because I flatly refuse to reduce her to any one of the nonexistent romances bandied about the fandom...I've been thinking this over because of the 'Everyone will be tested' thread on SQ. Do you think that Hermione's becoming a Prefect, if she does, might have something of the same effect? Especially as she would have to balance her loyalty to her friends against her responsibility to the school...
I keep coming back to that thing about the choice between what's easy and what's right. I can very easily see a situation developing for Hermione where what's easy is going along with her friends, and what's right is upholding her responisbility to the school--and the potential for Trio conflict around that is massive. Because you just know that the boys would not accept her 'turning against' them...
I know your post wasn't about Hermione, but I've been wanting to bounce that idea off someone and it would be dragging the thread OT just to concentrate on Hermione. Any thoughts?
no subject
Date: 2003-05-07 08:28 am (UTC)tendencies not to break rules and toe the line.
So my guess is that she will start out as very strict, go through a conflict with Harry and Ron, who might
revel too much in a potential new found position on the Quidditch team, and end up using the power she wields as a
prefect to bend the rules to their limits to help Harry survive Book V. We know that rooms are going to be important!
So somebody having good access to the castle is vital ...
but I also believe that Ron will come off any high horse he might get on. See, I think he's fundamentally a decent chap, if somewhat insecure ;)
Re:
Date: 2003-05-07 05:18 pm (UTC)tendencies not to break rules and toe the line.
And to insist that the others do the same, too...although her development so far has been towards autonomous action, away from reliance on 'the rules' per se and towards exercing her own judgement, and I don't want to see her lose that! I hope what we'll see is a situation where she scaffolds the other two into realising the importance and use of the social/magical structures they live within. I don't want to see her being 'educated away from' the power structure by the boys. For one thing, it would be a massive putdown to the character.
end up using the power she wields as a
prefect to bend the rules to their limits to help Harry survive Book V
Interesting. Why bend the rules--why not use the rules? I really want to see the simple equation of good = rule-bending problematised in the coming books. It's far too simplistic a set-up, one that works reasonably welll for young characters but needs to be revised for older ones, who can be presumed to have a more mature understanding of the world. Otherwise you end up with books like The Gathering, which...well, let's just say I agree with Heather Scutter about that one. ~shudders~
I also believe that Ron will come off any high horse he might get on. See, I think he's fundamentally a decent chap, if somewhat insecure ;)
Oh, so do I--on both counts. Doesn't mean I'm obliged to like him, though. ~shrugs~