can you deal with incest in fanfic?

[percival]

If you are a mature adult, yes, possibly. But if you are a child or a teenager? Will you know that it is not a good idea to have sexual relationships with your sibling? Or will repeated exposure to the idea and fantasising about the idea somehow start to make incest acceptable to you after a while?

Just a Buddhist thought:

In Buddhism, we try to be compassionate and loving in our hearts. That means that we neither dwell upon violence nor enjoy it. One of the key insights in Buddhist spirituality is that who you are and how you act is closely related to what you think. As a consequence, we need to work on our mind, our thinking. We need to make sure that our thoughts are compassionate, loving, free of clinging desire.

So, from a Buddhist perspective, actively seeking out incest fics because you get a thrill out of the dark, forbidden relationship is clearly wrong because you are indulging a desire to see people harm each other. You invite these fantasies into your mind and nourish them.

How would a Buddhist regard people who read incest fic? Well, non-judgmentally, with compassion and understanding. If they decide they need to pollute their minds, they will have a reason for doing it.

For the record, I myself continuosly pollute my mind with thoughts of anger, self hate, sarcasm, hate of others, petty jealousy. But seeing that I want to be a good Buddhist, I will need to work on that. Sigh. Revelling in anger can be such fun sometimes, just as revelling in fantasies of incest or rape can be fun for people who read those fics. But ultimately, it's nae good for you, says Uncle Gautama. And Uncle Gautama is usually not far off the mark, if you know what I mean.

Comments

[shellebelle93.livejournal.com]

A very interesting perspective. Christians are called to do the same thing. "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things." Philippians 4:8 And I also agree that our thoughts are related to our actions, and so often, thoughts become deeds.

And yeah, I need to work on this as well. *hugs* and peace to you.

[acusa-dora.livejournal.com]

There is evidence that de-sensitization is dangerous. If a person indulges in watching violent images (or I would think reading stories like this), they may come to accept the violence as normal. (kind of the opposite of Clockwork Orange. If nothing else, I've seen copycat crimes that mimic scenes depicted in films.

I have to say that I do get exposed to a lot of bad things in my job. I hope that the fact that I'm in the position of enforcing the rules of society helps me to stay centered. I can't say that I regard incest or violence as normal!

As for weaknesses. I don't like myself when I'm judgmental. I hope to keep working on that. I have found that often when someone I only know online does something I consider to be bad, I tend to categorize them and stick with that impression. That's the problem with online life. We really don't know each other very well and when you write something, there's no facial expression or tone of voice, so there can be misunderstandings. Got to keep working on myself!

[zanzara.livejournal.com]

I would ponder this question (an excellent question) from a psychological perspective rather than spiritual. My own spirtuality is all mixed up with psychology anyway...

I think that anger, jealousy, etc. are natural human emotions that are biologically driven...we can learn to control them, but they are best looked at as innate to our human kind.

When we look at the paraphilias such as incest there is something out of the realm of "normal human experience" that is definitely harmful to others. Something has gone wrong, sometimes in the wiring of the brain. Paraphilias begin in the mind, and to put this material in front of young people is in my opinion, quite wrong.

I am quite judgmental about things that cause harm to others. I would suck as a Buddist I suppose.

[cynthia-black.livejournal.com]

I'd agree with shellebelle93 and bucketgirl above, that it's far better in the long run, both personally and for society at large, to fill your mind with what is pure and good. Most of us need very little encouragement to bring out the worst in us - copycat crimes being proof. But like you, I tend to let a lot of the wrong stuff on board.

[perceval.livejournal.com]

To explain to you what's happening: some fanfic writers in the Harry Potter fandom seem to be quite openly peddling brother/sister or brother/brother incest fanfiction.

Quite a few people are up in arms against this, others defend their right to read incest - especially when it's stored on sites that are clearly marked as NC-17. Both sides can be quite violent in their opinions. I've tried to find a spiritual answer to this question, and this answer sits well with what I am learning about boundaries in massage practice, and about respect for the sexuality of others.

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

I wrote a Squickfic to finish in the fandom, because I wanted to go to the edges of what I could do. It wasn't very good - making it very good would have taken me into an inner darkness that I don't need to touch - it has been accepted as part of me, but it doesn't need to dominate me.

The problem is that people will keep on innovating, testing the limits, until what was formerly the limit becomes common place. People write with no understanding of the sibling or twin relationship. Or perhaps they do.

I can say that I shouldn't read it, and I would caution against other people reading it. It's the sort of thing that could close the online fandom if it got too big. Yet it needs to be there, just like 'Flowers in the Attic' needed to be written.

I don't post certain things onto my LJ - that is a conscious decision, because there are people that choose not to read certain things - cut tags aren't always enough. Links are fine.

[zanzara.livejournal.com]

Ah well, I'm extremely and passionately judgmental about many things NC-17.

I suppose I'm more of a Christian-Pagan-VictimRights sort of person. Whatever that means.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

Just to play devil's advocate, there are people who read action/adventure stories to satisfy their cravings for action/adventure which they don't get in their lives. Ditto for trashy romance, and mystery, and other sorts of novels. Incest fics (and rape fics, and other fics about unethical relationships) may do the same thing--give people who have such desires a chance to satisfy them without doing anything of the sort in real life.

Also, for the person writing the fic, I think it *better* that they write the fic rather than ignoring their thoughts and desires about incest--writing a fic about incest would force them to honestly face up to these thoughts and desires, rather than pretending that they don't exist, which IMO is extremely dangerous. (Whether they should *publish* the fic is another matter--I personally see no problem with it so long as it's on a clearly marked NC-17 site.)

insest

[celticqueenfan.livejournal.com]

I dont have a problem with insest in fiction as it happerns in real life and I dont belive real life subjucts no matter how scary they are or sqiuky should be shyed away from. This makes it even worst in some aspects.

sarah

ramble ramble

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

I've read through that conversation, P., but I'm firmly on the Buddhist, Christian and psychological side of this -- let me toss Wiccan (I'm moderately well-read) into this, that extremely close to the Christian concept, thought puts the same energy out into the universe that action does. The thought is indeed the deed itself, the decision was made.

I thought ataniell93's comments were interesting, despite the fact that she is twitchy and rude, especially when challenged. She said, and I quote without permission:

People who write rape fantasies do not want to be raped. They are fantasizing about having someone they find attractive chase them down and force them to do only those things that they want to do anyway, without having to deal with all that awkward disclosure and negotiation stuff safe sex and relationships require in RL.

People who write chan do not find real children sexually attractive. Chan characters don't act like real kids, at least not usually. In a fantasy, being young means you get to not have to make decisions, or that you're blameless for the decisions you make, and that people have to take care of you, and all kinds of other stuff.

And people who write incest do not fantasize about getting it on with their relatives. (Yuck! You've clearly never met my brother!) It's about sameness, about aesthetics, about blurring the boundaries between nurture and eroticism. Or it's bdsm ageplay fic.

OK, I'm a really literal Dog, quite often. So I'm looking at this, and wondering, 'So why don't you just write not being in control or blurring or something, but have it be between equals'? What's with the power tripping here? I don't think I understand.

[looking at her userinfo, because I can and I'm nosy] Hm. A Thelemite who's only two years younger than me and 15 different kinds of Slytherin. Aren't the Thelemites related somehow to Aleister Crowley? Talk about living the snakey life. No wonder I don't understand her attitude.

It's my literalism that makes incestfic, chan and the porny sort of slash (romance, if it doesn't drip sugar-syrup, I can usually handle the same as any other story) squickworthy for me. Oh, hatefic. Hurtful things. All that stuff. Cf: anything directed by Paul Verhoeven, who you'd think would be their patron 'saint' by now.

Re: insest

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

You've got a point about not shying away from real-life problem subjects -- but really, Weasley twincest isn't anything LIKE real life, which is the issue. It's fantasy incest, all hearts and flowers and 'aren't-I-naughty-teehee-for-writing-this' with no squick or sense of wrongness.

Mind you, I'm tarring it all with the same brush -- but I'd like somebody to show me an exception that deals with it as a horrifying tragedy for the brothers and the family.

Re: ramble ramble

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

The problem is that you can't say precisely why a person writes a particular sort of fic, or why someone reads it.

I agree about the fantasy element - sometimes it's about being in control of a situation that would be out of control usually. When dealt with realistically, or with some intelligence these can be quite insightful.

Generally I've found them tosh.

[acemyth.livejournal.com]

I've thought about this in the past, actually. And have reached a clear conclusion: Metacognition turns you insane.

My current view (which is very well subject to change) is that there's no such thing as a thought-crime, and people are allowed to think whatever thoughts they please. The back of our brains is the only part safe from society, and being able to think freely- about whatever- is, IMO, very very important. Imagine being angry at somebody and not even being able to channel the aggression by imagining yourself shouting what you think at them! I'd very shortly go insane, and my bet is that pretty much the rest of humanity would, too.

Obviously the line must be stretched before where thoughts become deeds. That, and some thoughts will clearly be of the sort that mental health would benefit from getting rid of. Still, I think that self-regulation of thoughts should be done according to what one feels is right, good for their well-being and constructive for their personality, rather than anything dictated by "universal", external principles.

Re: incest

[in-the-blue.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but part of the original point (and I assume that Perceval has written this entry in response to Arabe1la's journal) is that kids have access to this stuff. I'm not saying it's the fault of the writer, but who needs to take responsibility posting these fics in what is recognised worldwide as the realm of childrens' literature, with incest and twincest fics featuring their favourite characters? And no matter how many adult fans of HP there are, it's still marketed as children's and YA fiction. Write about whatever you want or need to write about, by all means... but just be conscious of where you leave it lying around, you know?

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

Still, I think that self-regulation of thoughts should be done according to what one feels is right, good for their well-being and constructive for their personality, rather than anything dictated by "universal", external principles.

OK, but what's bothering many of us isn't as much people expressing themselves in a catharitic manner, but people who are being transgressive (to borrow the term from musesfool, and hopefully use it correctly) for the sake of being transgressive -- to violate knowingly what is generally considered as 'correct' or 'normal' behaviour via their distortion of someone else's characters, and then banner this transgression in a proud manner, as if it should be normalised.

Certainly, freedom from thoughtcrime is as important as you're saying. But the spiritual viewpoint that I think several of us here adhere to say you're not violating human law, but spiritual law of a sort. Of course, this probably doesn't work if one is a hardcore atheist, so I don't know what keeps them from being depraved (really, I don't; it's something else I can't wrap my mind around yet).

What happens internally if you knowingly keep doing something 'wrong'?

Re: incest

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

That was Arabella's main objection -- not that it was being written and read, but the fact that people are writing it and bragging about it in very public fora/groups/etc.

I think you've got that one fan-Friend-critter who's barely an egg but she's all loaded up on slash. Sure, there's some shockingly smart and mature young teenagers nowadays -- I bet it's because of the intellect-expanding possibilities of cyberspace -- but if you take slash as gay fiction, what does she know about how men have sex at this young an age?

And if you take it, as one of the posters said in Arabella's thread, slash as being about what valarltd said, 'Slash has nothing to do with the "gay community." It's all about women's desires,' then again -- why is someone that young being so involved in sex?

The antagonist-posters in Arabella's thread can pretend the NC-17 stuff is all neatly locked away, but it's obviously not true, because even if the stories are, the discussions are not.

[piperx.livejournal.com]

My dear, you are so very good at being non-judgmental. Seriously. This was something that impressed me from the first day I met you and here is another example of it. Buddhism was indeed your calling.

As for the incest issue, I think you know how I feel. I try not to be judgmental, I imagine that there are some incest fics out there that I myself would really enjoy. But I do think the behavior is destructive (I've talked to far too many victims of it to think otherwise) and wrong so I don't read those kinds of stories. I understand why people are fascinated by it but I'm extremely concerned about the effects this fascination has on younger readers.

BTW, I must ask, qui es Uncle Guatama?

[perceval.livejournal.com]

You have a point there. Self-knowledge is better than suppression.

But after a writer has faced the fact that s/he really are into incest fantasies, s/he should then get some counselling to establish why on earth s/he feels compelled to fantasise about children doing each other great harm.

Is it because she wants to explore the depths of human misery with compassion?

Or is it lust?

Then what channelled her sexual desire into these paths?

Re: incest

[perceval.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'm way more restrictive than arabe1la. My reasoning leads me to the conclusion that NOBODY should read or write fics that glorify incest. Same for fics that glorify rape, violence, and torture.

Now fics that explore incest, rape, violence, and torture and their consequences on victims and perpetrators are different, because they explore the depths of the human soul.

So, I can read for example Irvine Welsh's Trainspotting as a description of the life of heroin addicts in Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK, Europe. That would be fine with me.

Or I can read it as an ode to drugs (which it isn't, afaik). That would not be ok.

See, there is a difference between revelling in a crime or in harm done to a person and trying to understand. According to Buddhism, the first throws you off your spiritual path, the second is okay.

Re: incest

[in-the-blue.livejournal.com]

I think if someone wants to work out their own issues through writing, that's valid. But it doesn't mean those writings need be shared with anyone other than a therapist, perhaps.

I also agree with you, Perceval, that fics that glorify criminal activity and make it something jubilant and sexy are far different from those that explore the consequences of actions and activities.

I don't know how else to say this; I think there are others here who make the point with far more eloquence.

Um...

[nabiki-gmyw.livejournal.com]

Of course, this probably doesn't work if one is a hardcore atheist, so I don't know what keeps them from being depraved (really, I don't; it's something else I can't wrap my mind around yet).

Actually, I feel that's quite an unfair proposition. I've met your typical atheist proffesor who is hardly depraved. He didn't drink or smoke or so any 'deparved' sort of thing. Likewise, I've met a Christian who was an alcoholic and was rumored to be in drugs.

The problem is that Western society likes to tie morality with religion. You can be moral and not have any religion and do good things for the sake of being good, for humanity whole.

My example? I'm a Christian, born in a somewhat fundamentalist-type family. Yet when I hear my mother putting down her own gay brother, I say to myself, "No, this can't be right." I remember her muttering 'good' when Willow loses Tara in Buffy and I can't believe this is spiritual behavior. When the family snorts at gay marriage or labels social drinkers as doomed sinners, I say, no, no, no, this can't be right.

I can't explain it. I don't know how. I know all the Bible arguments, but I can't believe this is how Jesus would act. I am moved and I don't know why or how. Is spriritual law flying in the face of human law? Or are some things true, regardless of all types of religions?

While the spiritual law is good, it also needs to be reinforced my human 'atheist' law. That's what atheists like my proffesor think. Just think of all the crimes committed in the name of 'spiritual laws' that simply don't deserve the name. To make it in life, I believe a healthy measure of both is needed.

Good is good, whether you're a believer of a religion or not. That's what gives me hope when people do sad and twsited things. I do believe that doing good is stronger than little differences in religions or atheism.

Don't believe for a second all atheists are automatically depraved. Somethings are stronger than that. If it weren't, humanity would've been screwed a long time ago.

And, to be more on-topic, I think the Buddist girl is right. And I also agree that people, fanfic writers, are doing it for the kicks, you know, to test the limits. Yet it's very hard to change the world on the net. Too wild and desorganized. Even if you wanted to stop something, there are only so many ways... If you want to change the incest thing, you'd have to change the person, and if that's tough in RL, imagine how difficult it is on the net.

[celtic-tiger.livejournal.com]

"actively seeking out incest fics because you get a thrill out of the dark, forbidden relationship is clearly wrong because you are indulging a desire to see people harm each other. You invite these fantasies into your mind and nourish them."
I would much rather people read about their fantasies rather than indulging in them, when those fantasies are potentially harmful to others when carried out. Writing/reading darkfic does not make you a sicko. Also, teenagers, while somewhat impressionable are not going to get a hard on over their brother from reading to much incest fic. If they do, I will bet you good money they had problems long before they read the fic.

[celtic-tiger.livejournal.com]

I don't know why you think it's your right to tell people what they can and can't read. I suppose what i don't understand about this whole thread is the lack of anyone saying something along the lines of "well that doesn't work for me, but since they are just stories (regardless of wether you believe in them promoting deeds) others can do what is right for them. Other people also have the power of judgement and morality, and I should leave them to it." My view is, if it is marked NC-17 and you don't like that sort of thing, leave it alone. No one is asking you to read it. If something with questionable elements is clearly marked, it's no one's fault if people look at it anyway.

[storm-maven.livejournal.com]

If you are a mature adult, yes, possibly. But if you are a child or a teenager? Will you know that it is not a good idea to have sexual relationships with your sibling? Or will repeated exposure to the idea and fantasising about the idea somehow start to make incest acceptable to you after a while?

See, I have a problem with this. It sort of implies that young people are not smart enough to realize that incest is wrong. I guess if you don't have any home training and/or your parents happen to be brother and sister (or cousins), I can see and understand what you are referring to. However, being the mindful parent that I am, my kids know that incest is not accepted, allowed and illegal. My kids (ages 13, 10, 8 and 6) do not look at each other lustfully nor do they do that with anyone they are related too. When a parent teaches their children what's wrong is wrong, then they usually follow that teaching.

So to answer your question: Yes, kids do know (or at least they should) that incest is wrong. Nor do I think it's right. However, to each his own. I am not their judge in the end and so I will not pass judgement on anyone.

I follow things like this at random.

[runawaykael.livejournal.com]

You've made the most sense of any of the lot, in my opinion.

Some people here blur gay fiction/fanfiction slash/ incest/rape into one 'deviant' category, and I find that so many kinds of misinformed that I can't begin to answer it.

It's the questioning attitude that I have to say something in favor of. I don't pretend to know everything that's right or wrong, but I can see what's harmful.

There is no question that incest is harmful. There is no question that the actual thought processes and even brain waves of children who are molested before a certain age are altered. These things are harmful and, in my opinion, portraying them in a positive light is as dangerous as portraying rape in a positive light. (And do a little criminal justice research, and you'll know that 'dangerous' is the right word.)

I know people don't always act on what they read about - but it happens. I know people don't always come to believe what they're told to believe - but it happens. As the law enforcement officer said, there are crimes committed that follow media portrayals so closely that there's no question that it's a copy. Would they have committed the crime anyway? I don't know. Would they have been moved to those means at that moment? That answers itself.

You can't censor the 'net. That won't happen. And I don't believe in flaming people who write disturbing things, because there's a real possibility that they're writing it because they're emotionally or mentally troubled about the subject they're writing about. I don't believe in invading forums created by adults for the discussion of adult topics and telling them 'this is a children's genre, butt out.'

Someone who writes - to use the Harry Potter example - Lucius/Draco may have a compelling need to write something like that, and yelling 'you're immoral' at a victim is not in any way righteous.

Agreeing that children below the age of majority should be prevented from reading these things - except and unless a professional mental health care worker is supervising - is generally universally agreed on. Except by the very young, and on what subject don't children want to grow up and know more too soon? Agreeing about what adults should be allowed to write and post - that's never going to happen.

So you can't control the web. You have no right to dictate to adults. If you have any sense of morality, you will not lambast the writers, because there's a very good chance that they were victims.

What do you do? I have no idea. Beyond the constantly repeated 'monitor your children.' The internet is not a babysitter, no matter how busy your life is. If you don't have the time to find out what your child is viewing, you don't need to allow them online. Beyond that? I have no idea. But honest questioning has always seemed to produce more results than any amount of self-righteousness.