can you deal with incest in fanfic?

[percival]

If you are a mature adult, yes, possibly. But if you are a child or a teenager? Will you know that it is not a good idea to have sexual relationships with your sibling? Or will repeated exposure to the idea and fantasising about the idea somehow start to make incest acceptable to you after a while?

Just a Buddhist thought:

In Buddhism, we try to be compassionate and loving in our hearts. That means that we neither dwell upon violence nor enjoy it. One of the key insights in Buddhist spirituality is that who you are and how you act is closely related to what you think. As a consequence, we need to work on our mind, our thinking. We need to make sure that our thoughts are compassionate, loving, free of clinging desire.

So, from a Buddhist perspective, actively seeking out incest fics because you get a thrill out of the dark, forbidden relationship is clearly wrong because you are indulging a desire to see people harm each other. You invite these fantasies into your mind and nourish them.

How would a Buddhist regard people who read incest fic? Well, non-judgmentally, with compassion and understanding. If they decide they need to pollute their minds, they will have a reason for doing it.

For the record, I myself continuosly pollute my mind with thoughts of anger, self hate, sarcasm, hate of others, petty jealousy. But seeing that I want to be a good Buddhist, I will need to work on that. Sigh. Revelling in anger can be such fun sometimes, just as revelling in fantasies of incest or rape can be fun for people who read those fics. But ultimately, it's nae good for you, says Uncle Gautama. And Uncle Gautama is usually not far off the mark, if you know what I mean.

Comments

[shellebelle93.livejournal.com]

A very interesting perspective. Christians are called to do the same thing. "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things." Philippians 4:8 And I also agree that our thoughts are related to our actions, and so often, thoughts become deeds.

And yeah, I need to work on this as well. *hugs* and peace to you.

[acusa-dora.livejournal.com]

There is evidence that de-sensitization is dangerous. If a person indulges in watching violent images (or I would think reading stories like this), they may come to accept the violence as normal. (kind of the opposite of Clockwork Orange. If nothing else, I've seen copycat crimes that mimic scenes depicted in films.

I have to say that I do get exposed to a lot of bad things in my job. I hope that the fact that I'm in the position of enforcing the rules of society helps me to stay centered. I can't say that I regard incest or violence as normal!

As for weaknesses. I don't like myself when I'm judgmental. I hope to keep working on that. I have found that often when someone I only know online does something I consider to be bad, I tend to categorize them and stick with that impression. That's the problem with online life. We really don't know each other very well and when you write something, there's no facial expression or tone of voice, so there can be misunderstandings. Got to keep working on myself!

[zanzara.livejournal.com]

I would ponder this question (an excellent question) from a psychological perspective rather than spiritual. My own spirtuality is all mixed up with psychology anyway...

I think that anger, jealousy, etc. are natural human emotions that are biologically driven...we can learn to control them, but they are best looked at as innate to our human kind.

When we look at the paraphilias such as incest there is something out of the realm of "normal human experience" that is definitely harmful to others. Something has gone wrong, sometimes in the wiring of the brain. Paraphilias begin in the mind, and to put this material in front of young people is in my opinion, quite wrong.

I am quite judgmental about things that cause harm to others. I would suck as a Buddist I suppose.

[perceval.livejournal.com]

To explain to you what's happening: some fanfic writers in the Harry Potter fandom seem to be quite openly peddling brother/sister or brother/brother incest fanfiction.

Quite a few people are up in arms against this, others defend their right to read incest - especially when it's stored on sites that are clearly marked as NC-17. Both sides can be quite violent in their opinions. I've tried to find a spiritual answer to this question, and this answer sits well with what I am learning about boundaries in massage practice, and about respect for the sexuality of others.

[cynthia-black.livejournal.com]

I'd agree with shellebelle93 and bucketgirl above, that it's far better in the long run, both personally and for society at large, to fill your mind with what is pure and good. Most of us need very little encouragement to bring out the worst in us - copycat crimes being proof. But like you, I tend to let a lot of the wrong stuff on board.

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

I wrote a Squickfic to finish in the fandom, because I wanted to go to the edges of what I could do. It wasn't very good - making it very good would have taken me into an inner darkness that I don't need to touch - it has been accepted as part of me, but it doesn't need to dominate me.

The problem is that people will keep on innovating, testing the limits, until what was formerly the limit becomes common place. People write with no understanding of the sibling or twin relationship. Or perhaps they do.

I can say that I shouldn't read it, and I would caution against other people reading it. It's the sort of thing that could close the online fandom if it got too big. Yet it needs to be there, just like 'Flowers in the Attic' needed to be written.

I don't post certain things onto my LJ - that is a conscious decision, because there are people that choose not to read certain things - cut tags aren't always enough. Links are fine.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

Just to play devil's advocate, there are people who read action/adventure stories to satisfy their cravings for action/adventure which they don't get in their lives. Ditto for trashy romance, and mystery, and other sorts of novels. Incest fics (and rape fics, and other fics about unethical relationships) may do the same thing--give people who have such desires a chance to satisfy them without doing anything of the sort in real life.

Also, for the person writing the fic, I think it *better* that they write the fic rather than ignoring their thoughts and desires about incest--writing a fic about incest would force them to honestly face up to these thoughts and desires, rather than pretending that they don't exist, which IMO is extremely dangerous. (Whether they should *publish* the fic is another matter--I personally see no problem with it so long as it's on a clearly marked NC-17 site.)

[perceval.livejournal.com]

You have a point there. Self-knowledge is better than suppression.

But after a writer has faced the fact that s/he really are into incest fantasies, s/he should then get some counselling to establish why on earth s/he feels compelled to fantasise about children doing each other great harm.

Is it because she wants to explore the depths of human misery with compassion?

Or is it lust?

Then what channelled her sexual desire into these paths?

insest

[celticqueenfan.livejournal.com]

I dont have a problem with insest in fiction as it happerns in real life and I dont belive real life subjucts no matter how scary they are or sqiuky should be shyed away from. This makes it even worst in some aspects.

sarah

Re: insest

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

You've got a point about not shying away from real-life problem subjects -- but really, Weasley twincest isn't anything LIKE real life, which is the issue. It's fantasy incest, all hearts and flowers and 'aren't-I-naughty-teehee-for-writing-this' with no squick or sense of wrongness.

Mind you, I'm tarring it all with the same brush -- but I'd like somebody to show me an exception that deals with it as a horrifying tragedy for the brothers and the family.

Re: incest

[in-the-blue.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but part of the original point (and I assume that Perceval has written this entry in response to Arabe1la's journal) is that kids have access to this stuff. I'm not saying it's the fault of the writer, but who needs to take responsibility posting these fics in what is recognised worldwide as the realm of childrens' literature, with incest and twincest fics featuring their favourite characters? And no matter how many adult fans of HP there are, it's still marketed as children's and YA fiction. Write about whatever you want or need to write about, by all means... but just be conscious of where you leave it lying around, you know?

ramble ramble

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

I've read through that conversation, P., but I'm firmly on the Buddhist, Christian and psychological side of this -- let me toss Wiccan (I'm moderately well-read) into this, that extremely close to the Christian concept, thought puts the same energy out into the universe that action does. The thought is indeed the deed itself, the decision was made.

I thought ataniell93's comments were interesting, despite the fact that she is twitchy and rude, especially when challenged. She said, and I quote without permission:

People who write rape fantasies do not want to be raped. They are fantasizing about having someone they find attractive chase them down and force them to do only those things that they want to do anyway, without having to deal with all that awkward disclosure and negotiation stuff safe sex and relationships require in RL.

People who write chan do not find real children sexually attractive. Chan characters don't act like real kids, at least not usually. In a fantasy, being young means you get to not have to make decisions, or that you're blameless for the decisions you make, and that people have to take care of you, and all kinds of other stuff.

And people who write incest do not fantasize about getting it on with their relatives. (Yuck! You've clearly never met my brother!) It's about sameness, about aesthetics, about blurring the boundaries between nurture and eroticism. Or it's bdsm ageplay fic.

OK, I'm a really literal Dog, quite often. So I'm looking at this, and wondering, 'So why don't you just write not being in control or blurring or something, but have it be between equals'? What's with the power tripping here? I don't think I understand.

[looking at her userinfo, because I can and I'm nosy] Hm. A Thelemite who's only two years younger than me and 15 different kinds of Slytherin. Aren't the Thelemites related somehow to Aleister Crowley? Talk about living the snakey life. No wonder I don't understand her attitude.

It's my literalism that makes incestfic, chan and the porny sort of slash (romance, if it doesn't drip sugar-syrup, I can usually handle the same as any other story) squickworthy for me. Oh, hatefic. Hurtful things. All that stuff. Cf: anything directed by Paul Verhoeven, who you'd think would be their patron 'saint' by now.

Re: ramble ramble

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

The problem is that you can't say precisely why a person writes a particular sort of fic, or why someone reads it.

I agree about the fantasy element - sometimes it's about being in control of a situation that would be out of control usually. When dealt with realistically, or with some intelligence these can be quite insightful.

Generally I've found them tosh.

Re: ramble ramble

[ataniell93.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm 15 different kinds of Thelemite and very proud of it. Aleister Crowley was the founder of the tradition.

[acemyth.livejournal.com]

I've thought about this in the past, actually. And have reached a clear conclusion: Metacognition turns you insane.

My current view (which is very well subject to change) is that there's no such thing as a thought-crime, and people are allowed to think whatever thoughts they please. The back of our brains is the only part safe from society, and being able to think freely- about whatever- is, IMO, very very important. Imagine being angry at somebody and not even being able to channel the aggression by imagining yourself shouting what you think at them! I'd very shortly go insane, and my bet is that pretty much the rest of humanity would, too.

Obviously the line must be stretched before where thoughts become deeds. That, and some thoughts will clearly be of the sort that mental health would benefit from getting rid of. Still, I think that self-regulation of thoughts should be done according to what one feels is right, good for their well-being and constructive for their personality, rather than anything dictated by "universal", external principles.

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

Still, I think that self-regulation of thoughts should be done according to what one feels is right, good for their well-being and constructive for their personality, rather than anything dictated by "universal", external principles.

OK, but what's bothering many of us isn't as much people expressing themselves in a catharitic manner, but people who are being transgressive (to borrow the term from musesfool, and hopefully use it correctly) for the sake of being transgressive -- to violate knowingly what is generally considered as 'correct' or 'normal' behaviour via their distortion of someone else's characters, and then banner this transgression in a proud manner, as if it should be normalised.

Certainly, freedom from thoughtcrime is as important as you're saying. But the spiritual viewpoint that I think several of us here adhere to say you're not violating human law, but spiritual law of a sort. Of course, this probably doesn't work if one is a hardcore atheist, so I don't know what keeps them from being depraved (really, I don't; it's something else I can't wrap my mind around yet).

What happens internally if you knowingly keep doing something 'wrong'?

[piperx.livejournal.com]

My dear, you are so very good at being non-judgmental. Seriously. This was something that impressed me from the first day I met you and here is another example of it. Buddhism was indeed your calling.

As for the incest issue, I think you know how I feel. I try not to be judgmental, I imagine that there are some incest fics out there that I myself would really enjoy. But I do think the behavior is destructive (I've talked to far too many victims of it to think otherwise) and wrong so I don't read those kinds of stories. I understand why people are fascinated by it but I'm extremely concerned about the effects this fascination has on younger readers.

BTW, I must ask, qui es Uncle Guatama?

[celtic-tiger.livejournal.com]

"actively seeking out incest fics because you get a thrill out of the dark, forbidden relationship is clearly wrong because you are indulging a desire to see people harm each other. You invite these fantasies into your mind and nourish them."
I would much rather people read about their fantasies rather than indulging in them, when those fantasies are potentially harmful to others when carried out. Writing/reading darkfic does not make you a sicko. Also, teenagers, while somewhat impressionable are not going to get a hard on over their brother from reading to much incest fic. If they do, I will bet you good money they had problems long before they read the fic.

[iczer6.livejournal.com]

Yes because no one in the history of the world ever used writing or art to explore something dangerous or forbidden.

I guess we should alert the feds about Mr. Stephen King.

After all he's written tons of books that deal with people dying in all sorts of gruesome ways, so naturally he must be a vampire-serial killing murderer who abuses his wife.

After all that's what he wrote about.

[storm-maven.livejournal.com]

If you are a mature adult, yes, possibly. But if you are a child or a teenager? Will you know that it is not a good idea to have sexual relationships with your sibling? Or will repeated exposure to the idea and fantasising about the idea somehow start to make incest acceptable to you after a while?

See, I have a problem with this. It sort of implies that young people are not smart enough to realize that incest is wrong. I guess if you don't have any home training and/or your parents happen to be brother and sister (or cousins), I can see and understand what you are referring to. However, being the mindful parent that I am, my kids know that incest is not accepted, allowed and illegal. My kids (ages 13, 10, 8 and 6) do not look at each other lustfully nor do they do that with anyone they are related too. When a parent teaches their children what's wrong is wrong, then they usually follow that teaching.

So to answer your question: Yes, kids do know (or at least they should) that incest is wrong. Nor do I think it's right. However, to each his own. I am not their judge in the end and so I will not pass judgement on anyone.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

You do know it's perfectly legal for first cousins to marry in a bunch of states, right?

I agree with you. I'm kind of surprised by the pervasiveness of the idea that it's damaging somehow for teenagers to read about sex, even creepy sex. Those of us on this thread who are quite a bit older, where has memory gone? Seems my entire 8th grade class was reading Flowers In the Attic at one point (and, like Clan of the Cave Bear and Forever, everybody's copy fell open to "the good parts"). I mean that piece of melodramatic crap specifically because of the incestuous relationship in it--which is presented as romantic and tragic and doomed and beee-yoootiful, by the way. Yet I don't think anyone considered it a model for behavior.

Junior high kids can still walk into any major bookstore and buy all kinds of books--they're not labeled or rated and I've never seen or heard of anyone carded. Certainly I wasn't when I bought The Hite Report and My Secret Garden when I was 13 or so. (Glad I went for some nonfiction too--that should really be encouraged, IMO). Fiction is fiction, it's read for different reasons than nonfiction, and does anyone really treat it as a guide for behavior? If so, as has been said, it's the murder-mystery fans we really need to watch out for.

[moeyknight.livejournal.com]

Thank you for a calm, rational, and intelligent post - as usual. :)

[kenovay.livejournal.com]

But if you are a child or a teenager? Will you know that it is not a good idea to have sexual relationships with your sibling?

Children? Under the age of about ten, I'll grant you. Maybe. Depending on the child. Teenagers? Can distinguish between fact and fiction. Trust me. I am one.

[kitsune13.livejournal.com]

You do realize that there is an extensive and respected mythological, folk and literary tradition that deals with incest, right? Isis and Osiris, the House of Atreus myth cycle, Oedipus Tyrannus, Hamlet, Tis Pity She's a Whore (Ford), The Cenci (Shelley), Manfred (Byron), The Magic Toyshop (Angela Carter), The Bluest Eye (Toni Morrison), Angels and Insects (A.S. Byatt), The Cement Garden (Ian McEwan), several dozen folksongs ("Edward," "Sheath and Knife," "Lucy Wan"), several well-known folktales ("Donkeyskin" -- a "Cinderella" variant, and related to King Lear, "The Maiden Without Hands"), to name a few off the top of my head. The point is, incest is an incredibly powerful aspect of human existence: the lure of the forbidden; the conflict between the sacred (incest is a privilege of the gods) and the profane (it's a "pollution" of the blood and the land, i.e. the plague in Oedipus); the betrayal by those who are supposed to care for you; the elision between love and desire and all the grey areas in between. It's strong, interesting, challenging stuff, with the force of myth behind it. Why on earth shouldn't people write about it? That's one of the functions of art: exploring taboo subjects, exorcising demons, playing with things that interest and excite you, but are unfeasible or immoral in a real-world context. Because guess what? Art is not life. And trying to claim that people who write about incest pose some sort of real-life threat to themselves or others is damned silly: by that logic, Agatha Christie and Thomas Harris should be locked away. And as for complaining about the use of rape, incest, chan, to "outrage" or whatever it is you think incest writers are doing (because naturally, every single incest writer has exactly the same agenda, dontcha know): again, Agatha Christie, who constantly used the profound tragedy of the murder of another human being as a cheap plot device. So? Art is art, not life.

Also, if you're as into "compassion" as you say you are, you might want to leave off the condescending psychoanalysis of those whose interests and proroties are different from your own.

[acusa-dora.livejournal.com]

Isn't the essence of free speech being free to be as condescending as you want to be?

I didn't get the idea that Perceval was advocating some sort of censorship. She just said she didn't think that anyone should be reading it. That's her opinion and this is her live journal.

[ataniell93.livejournal.com]

It's fiction. It's not real.

Contrary to New Age theory, thoughts alone do not change your reality. Magick is the result of a conscious effort of will, directed at changing reality. People don't become bad as a result of reading fanfic any more than people die because you fleetingly wish they would.

Yes, there are people who don't get the difference between fantasy and reality. They cause the most trouble when they read the Bible and shoot up clinics, but nobody's talking about banning the Bible.

[littlewings04.livejournal.com]

I feel it also important to note that the Bible does contain sexual elements, incest, rape and murder. It is as dark at times as any of the darkfics out there. And yet it is the moral fabric for countless of millions out there. Why? Because these are the elements of the human conditions that need to be dealt with--whether by reading about them, writing about them, going to therapy for them or confessing them every Sunday.

[switchknife.livejournal.com]

How would a Buddhist regard people who read incest fic? Well, non-judgmentally, with compassion and understanding. If they decide they need to pollute their minds, they will have a reason for doing it.

You do realize that that's a contradiction in terms. Non-judgmental, huh?

I would also like to point out that not all incest, even in real life, involves 'harming people'. There are times when sexual exploration between siblings is natural and, indeed, constructive. Do not view ALL incest with prejudice--you are not being 'non-judgmental' at all if you do so.

An artist's job lies in discovering the beauty, however subversive, of any situation whatsoever--in fact, an artist who manages to introduce beauty into what is generally considered 'ugly' is the greatest artist of all. And as for the issue of 'influence': We have our own minds, and it is our responsibility, in the end, as to how we choose to apply them. (I am not going to start murdering people because I have written aesthetically, a few times, about the act of murder. Nor do I expect to be held responsible--although I may be dubiously flattered--if some already insane individual decides to follow my book word for word in real life.)

Also: Many religious texts, such as the Bible, make references to incest and various other morally 'questionable' acts. Are these texts setting out to 'pollute' the minds of their readers? (Well--they don't intend to, at least.)

But then I'm anti-censorship, so opinions like yours are bound to rub me the wrong way.

No pun intended.

You also seem to be implying that incest is an issue discovered by fanfiction writers--this just makes me want to bite my lip and blink. Oh. For Pete's sake. You may wish to consider the following very contemporary and widely acclaimed books:

'The Man Who Fell in Love With the Moon' by Tom Spanbauer (father/son)

'Cereus Blooms at Night' by Shani Mootoo (father/daughter)

'The Carnivorous Lamb' by ? (can't remember the author's name, sorry; brother/brother)

'The Blue Bedspread' by Raj Kamal Jha (brother/sister, father/son)

... As well as various other novels that I cannot remember on the spot, but are available at your nearest bookshop.

Do some research, honey. Be moved by the beauty of language. Rise above the need for moral nit-picking.

[kitsune13.livejournal.com]

I already asked Ataniell to marry me, but you! I will have your porny babies. <333

[swampfaye.livejournal.com]

I don't think your post was judgemental - as in "YOU PEOPLE WHO WRITE INCEST FAN FIC ARE SICK" - that would be what *I* would say - yes, but you didn't say it, you proposed some thought on the subject. If someone is offended, too bad (I'll beat them up for you)

Incest is never "harmless" - like child pornography or abuse, it has real life consequences. THe problem with most fan fic is that it never produces consequences. Homosexual relationships never end in AIDS, Heterosexual relationships never end in pregnancy or divorce, incest never ends with bruised egos and psyche's, and adult/child relationships never end in damaged and confused children. It's unreal. That's why it remains fan fic.

And may I remind fan fic writers... Romance is not Passion and Lust is not Romance.

[iczer6.livejournal.com]

[THe problem with most fan fic is that it never produces consequences.]

Nor should it. God forbid someone reads a story that's Deep and Meaningful.

Not everything in the universe needs to be taken seriously. If someone wants to write a FredxGeorge smutfest and NOT turn into in a 30 chapter angstfest they're allowed.

Did you miss the rant above that one of the appeals of fiction is that we can explore things that are dangerous or harmful without dealing with real life consequences?

Here are some salad tongs, pull that pole out of your ass and then we can talk.

Fan fiction and people in mauvais fois=defensiveness

[seraphimsigrist.livejournal.com]

I have the feeling that the writing of
stories about imagined sexual relations
not intended by an author and in many cases
of a sort the author would find profoundly
inappropriate, is as good an example as you
can get of being ,in the term of Jean Paul
Sartre in "mauvais fois", in bad faith.
My sense is ,or at least assuming some intelligence
and sensitivity my presumption would be, that most
authors of this sort of thing are aware of being
in mauvais fois and yet for some reason they
are tittilated by writing this crap...or by
reading it also of course...in some cases
depending on whose writing they have attatched
their fanfiction to they may also be uneasily
and half consciously feeling that the whole
body of work from the beginning is not worth
an intelligent persons time so that plus the
half awareness of intellectual dishonesty and
bad faith in what they are doing...
put that together and you can get some major
defensiveness.
I have not read responses to your first post
so I am not quite sure this happened but I
deliberately am not reading them so that no mutual
friend(unbenknownst to me having been a fanfic
writer) will feel I am thinking of them. I am not.
I am not aware of any friends writing this or if
I am I have repressed the memory :)
I know you write fan fiction, and I do not esteem
for Harry Potter to begin with but you knew that
about me, but I know you said you write for
the story not to set up fantastic projections of
sexuality.
I have myself enjoyed real fanfiction of this
sort in the star trek tradition and even written
a little myself in Oz...
yours
+Seraphim.

Re: Fan fiction and people in mauvais fois=defensiveness

[perceval.livejournal.com]

actually, the responses showed some interesting reasons for this "mauvais fois": people using another author's characters to explore sensitive issues of power, consent, or betrayal. Thinking about issues in terms of stories and characters, rather than in terms of concepts, if you will.

thank you for your well reasoned comment.