can you deal with incest in fanfic?

[percival]

If you are a mature adult, yes, possibly. But if you are a child or a teenager? Will you know that it is not a good idea to have sexual relationships with your sibling? Or will repeated exposure to the idea and fantasising about the idea somehow start to make incest acceptable to you after a while?

Just a Buddhist thought:

In Buddhism, we try to be compassionate and loving in our hearts. That means that we neither dwell upon violence nor enjoy it. One of the key insights in Buddhist spirituality is that who you are and how you act is closely related to what you think. As a consequence, we need to work on our mind, our thinking. We need to make sure that our thoughts are compassionate, loving, free of clinging desire.

So, from a Buddhist perspective, actively seeking out incest fics because you get a thrill out of the dark, forbidden relationship is clearly wrong because you are indulging a desire to see people harm each other. You invite these fantasies into your mind and nourish them.

How would a Buddhist regard people who read incest fic? Well, non-judgmentally, with compassion and understanding. If they decide they need to pollute their minds, they will have a reason for doing it.

For the record, I myself continuosly pollute my mind with thoughts of anger, self hate, sarcasm, hate of others, petty jealousy. But seeing that I want to be a good Buddhist, I will need to work on that. Sigh. Revelling in anger can be such fun sometimes, just as revelling in fantasies of incest or rape can be fun for people who read those fics. But ultimately, it's nae good for you, says Uncle Gautama. And Uncle Gautama is usually not far off the mark, if you know what I mean.

Comments

insest

[celticqueenfan.livejournal.com]

I dont have a problem with insest in fiction as it happerns in real life and I dont belive real life subjucts no matter how scary they are or sqiuky should be shyed away from. This makes it even worst in some aspects.

sarah

Re: insest

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

You've got a point about not shying away from real-life problem subjects -- but really, Weasley twincest isn't anything LIKE real life, which is the issue. It's fantasy incest, all hearts and flowers and 'aren't-I-naughty-teehee-for-writing-this' with no squick or sense of wrongness.

Mind you, I'm tarring it all with the same brush -- but I'd like somebody to show me an exception that deals with it as a horrifying tragedy for the brothers and the family.

Re: insest

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

Mind you, I'm tarring it all with the same brush -- but I'd like somebody to show me an exception that deals with it as a horrifying tragedy for the brothers and the family.

Er...I wrote that. Though, it was Bill/Ginny, not twincest. But still. Some of us do actually write stuff like that from time to time. When I wrote it it spawned a lot of very interesting dicussion about the horror that is incest, and how difficult it is for victims to speak out.

But I suppose I shouldn't have written it, as it forced me to dwell on thse horrors for a while? Hmph.

Re: insest

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

Some of us do actually write stuff like that from time to time. When I wrote it it spawned a lot of very interesting dicussion about the horror that is incest, and how difficult it is for victims to speak out.

It's not the 'some of you' that are the point of debate -- it's the ones who write it like 'forbidden luuuurve', as if it's the consummation of all that is beauty and desire.

I'm glad to read... OK, 'glad' is a bad verb here. Ermm... I can appreciate that it sparked some serious and insightful discussion.

How did writing it make you feel? I'm curious about the inside of your head.

Re: insest

[kitsune13.livejournal.com]

Actually, incest as "forbidden love" has a viable tradition of literary representation, primarily among the Romantics: Byron and Shelley, in particular, tended to represent sibling incest as an extension and intensification of normal sibling love, rather than a perversion of it -- part of their theme of Romantic transgression. The tragedy (esp. in Shelley's Laon and Cynthus) comes in part because of the judgment of the outside world. Also, a decent number of folk songs treat sibling transgressors with a great deal of sympathy ("Sheath and Knife").

The point being that there has always been a space in literature acknowledging that incest is far too complicated an issue to merely file it away under "OMG EVIL." And treating the incestuous characters sympathetically isn't even remotely within the realm of "glorification." I have yet to read an incest story, literary or fanfictional, that says "Incest is great, so go out and sleep with your relatives right now!!1!" Anyone who managed to get that from a fictional story has issues of their own.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

Uh...

I'm disturbed that you're so interested in the inside of my head, but writing the fic was a very interesting experience. I was writing about issues of consent in as many situations as I could come up with, problematizing as much as I could.

From what I can tell, people participating in this conversation may not understand why anyone would do that. I think there's something to be said about working through these things, both in private and in a public forum. I certainly learned a lot. The conversations that emerged were interesting and enlightening; some people felt that the incest victim I was portraying was in fact 'a slut' because of her situation. If people honestly have the capacity to think that way about girls caught in these kinds of vicious circumstances, I think it's something we really should explore, by your own moral standpoint. What if this stuff makes people more sensitive, rather than less?

How did it make me feel, writing incest? I really have no idea, I was more fixated on how my characters would be feeling than how it was making me feel. Challenged, I guess. It's difficult to write emotionally-charged situations. It felt more like a manifesto than anything else.

Hope that helps.

[perceval.livejournal.com]

yes, it helps enormously. Your comment helps me understand why people write incest. Issues of consent are certainly part of it, as are issues of power (big brother/little sister).

And these issues need to be explored, because no matter how "enlightened" or "holy" a person is, s/he will still feel all of the negative emotions that everybody is subject to. Now, (and this is my spiritual tradition coming through again, so bear with me ...), I think that it is much better to acklowledge a negative emotion and to explore it with compassion than to push it away and smack yourself for even THINKING about such things.

Well written incest really can make people more sensitive. I came away from Lolita thoroughly disgusted by Humbert Humbert, and marvelling at the way people can justify their own behaviour.

Re: incest

[in-the-blue.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but part of the original point (and I assume that Perceval has written this entry in response to Arabe1la's journal) is that kids have access to this stuff. I'm not saying it's the fault of the writer, but who needs to take responsibility posting these fics in what is recognised worldwide as the realm of childrens' literature, with incest and twincest fics featuring their favourite characters? And no matter how many adult fans of HP there are, it's still marketed as children's and YA fiction. Write about whatever you want or need to write about, by all means... but just be conscious of where you leave it lying around, you know?

Re: incest

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

That was Arabella's main objection -- not that it was being written and read, but the fact that people are writing it and bragging about it in very public fora/groups/etc.

I think you've got that one fan-Friend-critter who's barely an egg but she's all loaded up on slash. Sure, there's some shockingly smart and mature young teenagers nowadays -- I bet it's because of the intellect-expanding possibilities of cyberspace -- but if you take slash as gay fiction, what does she know about how men have sex at this young an age?

And if you take it, as one of the posters said in Arabella's thread, slash as being about what valarltd said, 'Slash has nothing to do with the "gay community." It's all about women's desires,' then again -- why is someone that young being so involved in sex?

The antagonist-posters in Arabella's thread can pretend the NC-17 stuff is all neatly locked away, but it's obviously not true, because even if the stories are, the discussions are not.

Re: incest

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

Just out of curiosity, what sort of discussions are these? Are they discussions that merely mention the fact that NC-17 stuff exists? Or are they discussions that go into graphhic detail about the kind of sex involved?

I can see your objections about the latter. I cannot agree with them about the former, however. I've never seen the point of keeping kids "innocent," i.e. ignorant. They should, and very often do, know that incest and rape happens. They shouldn't be reading stories that glorify these acts, but that's not the writers' responsiblities--it's the kids' parents. There's no reason for the writers to self-censor because the kids' parents can't be bothered to password-protect the internet or something.

why is someone that young being so involved in sex?

Er. How young? 10? Or 16? Because, I can assure you, teenagers fantasize. Graphically. If they're reading explicit slashfic, it's to satisfy and explore their desires--and I find it hard to see anything wrong with that. Teenagers do not suddenly get the idea for sex from fanfic. Fanfic may *influence* their fantasies, but as long as it's not rape/incest/violence (and you referred to slash in your post, not any of the above) then I fail to see what's wrong with that.

Re: incest

[sff-corgi.livejournal.com]

Argh. [wipes paw over face] I want to answer your comments well, but I'm afraid I'll be insufficient.

Just out of curiosity, what sort of discussions are these?

They're discussions in which I am not present. You know the 'you can always hit the back button' stuff? I'm sure it's not surprising that I'm not in communities where a lot of this is bandied about.

I can, however, speak to a public post I think might be an example. Public, just like Arabella's. I'd come across this particular blog by following some links out of curiosity. The blog's owner mentioned she'd just written a delicious little Ron/Ginny story, of which she was quite proud. I read it, out of horrified curiosity -- it was essentially PWP, Ginny was some Lolita-like little seductress, and there were no consequences. I don't remember having to provide any password, verify I was over 17, etc.

The equally public comments were all flattering to the author, expressing great delight in how hot it was to have two underaged siblings engaging in sexual intercourse.

Certainly, this was a blog, not a forum -- but I also doubt it's an exception. I haven't had the stomach to actually go looking for stuff that raises my blood pressure....

They should, and very often do, know that incest and rape happens. They shouldn't be reading stories that glorify these acts, but that's not the writers' responsiblities--it's the kids' parents. There's no reason for the writers to self-censor because the kids' parents can't be bothered to password-protect the internet or something.

Of course they need to know bad things can happen -- but as you said, they shouldn't read stories that glorify those acts.

However, saying the writers shouldn't police themselves is not unlike finger-pointing. I'm not promoting censorship -- but there's nothing wrong with discretion, is there? Especially the ones who are writing stuff for what I think of as the 'cheap thrill' value, they know they're doing something 'wrong' (it's hard to find the right words, ones without inappropriate spin to them). It's kinda like not leaving matches around while the kid is still learning that fire can hurt.

I'm comparing this particular mindset of authors to furries. Furries know they've got a rather specific kink that most people don't share. They keep it to themselves; they do not flaunt their turn-ons in the faces of those who would lack appreciation. This doesn't limit them, but ferDewi'ssake, they have a sense of discretion! Is that really too much to ask?

*...why is someone that young being so involved in sex?*

Er. How young? 10? Or 16? Because, I can assure you, teenagers fantasize. Graphically. If they're reading explicit slashfic, it's to satisfy and explore their desires...

Jeez, I know -- otherwise Britney Spears probably wouldn't be so popular [/sneer]. I'm thinking more of the 10-13 range. I'm also thinking, which you might disagree with, that since this is coming from childrens'/juvie fiction, it's less appropriate than from an adult series.

And furthermore, I think that Life, the Universe and Everything has become much too sexualised. This may be one of those perpetually-repeating plaints through the centuries, which means I'm mentally fighting a losing battle. But greatwideleap once pointed out an editorial from a Harvard newspaper in which the writer was complaining that because of sexual freedom, romance was dying -- because of the promotion of the lack of restraint, there was none of the poignant tension which most people seem to crave. (I can't find the article itself, but I'll try to find it.)

Is that making sense? I'm not always sure I'm coherent.

Fanfic may *influence* their fantasies, but as long as it's not rape/incest/violence (and you referred to slash in your post, not any of the above) then I fail to see what's wrong with that.

I only referred to slash because I'm thinking of the 12-year-old who Friended one of my friends who was all about slash, and because I don't see too much slash that would fall under the 'sweet' category, to borrow the romance genre's term rather than the 'spicy' category. See above note about 'sexualised'.

Re: incest

[iczer6.livejournal.com]

[However, saying the writers shouldn't police themselves is not unlike finger-pointing. I'm not promoting censorship -- but there's nothing wrong with discretion, is there?]

In most cases no, but you know what if someone wants to toot their own horn about the LuciusxDraco fic they wrote that's their right. You don't have to listen, or read.

Believe it or not people are gonna write and promote storie that YOU don't like. Stop expecting the world around you to cater to your whims.

[The blog's owner mentioned she'd just written a delicious little Ron/Ginny story, of which she was quite proud.]

The thing here is it was the blog's OWNER, she's allowed to write and post what she wants, just as you're allowed to NOT READ IT. I have no sympathy for you here, you knew that the story wasn't to your liking but you read it anyway. You being squicked was your own damn fault.

And the fact is no matter what story you tell there is always gonna be someone who will dislike it for some reason.

Re: incest

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

However, saying the writers shouldn't police themselves is not unlike finger-pointing. I'm not promoting censorship -- but there's nothing wrong with discretion, is there? Especially the ones who are writing stuff for what I think of as the 'cheap thrill' value, they know they're doing something 'wrong' (it's hard to find the right words, ones without inappropriate spin to them). It's kinda like not leaving matches around while the kid is still learning that fire can hurt.

Hmm. I think 'adult' is a good word--acknowledging risks without passing judgment :).

Anyway, I don't think that anyone who posts anything on their own blog or livejournal has to constantly watch their backs because of some hypothetical 9-year-old who might be reading it. I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect that all adult discussion be kept under lock and key. Really, how is a kid going to accidentally stumble on an incest porn fic? (If he does it on purpose, well, he's already got incest on the brain, and will dwell on it whether he finds fic or not). He's not going to come across some porn writer's LJ/site merely by typing "Harry Potter" into Google, or even "Harry Potter fanfic". If he/she is a reader of clean, SQ-style fics, then he/she is unlikely to have porn writers on his/her friendslist, or even to know their usernames. It's a lot more difficult for this hypothetical kid to find this porn than it is for him/her to wander into Barnes and Noble and pick up Lolita or Summer Sisters or something.

they do not flaunt their turn-ons in the faces of those who would lack appreciation.

Hmm. I guess I don't consider posting something in one's own LJ to be "flaunting." I mean, if it was posted on FA or something, I'd agree.

because of sexual freedom, romance was dying -- because of the promotion of the lack of restraint, there was none of the poignant tension which most people seem to crave. (I can't find the article itself, but I'll try to find it.)

Is that making sense? I'm not always sure I'm coherent.

Of course it makes sense. I've heard the argument before. I don't quite buy it, though--if most people "crave" poignant tension, then they can create it quite easily by being restrained about sex, and if they're not restrained about sex then they obviously don't crave tension!. It's not quite fair, IMO, to limit one person's sexual freedom because some other person finds Victorian notions of sex romantic. That other person can live their life according to those notions if they choose, but other people are likewise free to do what they want. (I also can't help feeling that the old-fashioned "romantic" conventions disappeared for a reason--the people who were actually forced to live by these rules didn't seem to find them romantic, more like stifling and oppressive! But that's neither here nor there.)


*Phew* This is a tiring discussion, innit? Especially with the boatloads of snarkiness and rudeness and general wank that it seems to have stirred up.

Re: incest

[perceval.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'm way more restrictive than arabe1la. My reasoning leads me to the conclusion that NOBODY should read or write fics that glorify incest. Same for fics that glorify rape, violence, and torture.

Now fics that explore incest, rape, violence, and torture and their consequences on victims and perpetrators are different, because they explore the depths of the human soul.

So, I can read for example Irvine Welsh's Trainspotting as a description of the life of heroin addicts in Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK, Europe. That would be fine with me.

Or I can read it as an ode to drugs (which it isn't, afaik). That would not be ok.

See, there is a difference between revelling in a crime or in harm done to a person and trying to understand. According to Buddhism, the first throws you off your spiritual path, the second is okay.

Re: incest

[in-the-blue.livejournal.com]

I think if someone wants to work out their own issues through writing, that's valid. But it doesn't mean those writings need be shared with anyone other than a therapist, perhaps.

I also agree with you, Perceval, that fics that glorify criminal activity and make it something jubilant and sexy are far different from those that explore the consequences of actions and activities.

I don't know how else to say this; I think there are others here who make the point with far more eloquence.

Re: incest

[perceval.livejournal.com]

Well, it was not just about the kids, it was about all age groups, really. I've been a bit more explicit about my views re: protection of kids in my January 15 entry.